Is Su-100 the best tank destroyer in WW2?

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sunjin
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Is Su-100 the best tank destroyer in WW2?

Beitrag von sunjin »

anybody answer me? If yes, why?
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Re: Is Su-100 the best tank destroyer in WW2?

Beitrag von -Barbarossa- »

It is definetly not because it has only 4 crew member (commander is gunner at the same time) which causes slower rate of fire and lower accuracy as with 5 crew members. Gun was ok but is outclassed by german 8,8cm L/71. Armour is ok too but not a real problem for late war guns.
Low silhouette and good mobility were the greatest advantages.

Jagdpanther ftw! military7
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Re: Is Su-100 the best tank destroyer in WW2?

Beitrag von Marlboro »

The SU-100 saw very limited combat compared to other machines as it entered service in January 1945. And if what Barbarossa said about crew layout is right, then it would have a poor practical rate of fire, as the commander's job is to look for other targets and priorities them for the gunner...
So for the Soviet Union the best tank destroyer was actually the T-34-85 because when issued missions in areas where there were lot of enemy tank forces the crew were given special Tungsten Sub-Caliber ammunition ( http://www.janes.com/articles/Janes-Amm ... ation.html ) -- although it had very good AP performance the round was expensive, rare and it caused more gun barrel ware.

On the other hand i guess the most used and the preferred all round Tank Destroyer for the Soviet Union was the SU-85...

If we are talking about prototypes it worth to mention a SU-85 with longer gun and increased muzzle velocity or the more exotic ones featured in World of Tanks game...
Possible One
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Re: Is Su-100 the best tank destroyer in WW2?

Beitrag von Possible One »

my opinion, the best soviet tank destroyer was object 704, but i don't see him in sudden strike ...
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Re: Is Su-100 the best tank destroyer in WW2?

Beitrag von Adler39 »

Besides the problem of having a crew of only 4 men, i think it was still one of the best TD design of the WW2.
Technically seen, it was the best soviet tank destroyer version that went into series production around this time.
Possible One hat geschrieben:my opinion, the best soviet tank destroyer was object 704, but i don't see him in sudden strike ...
Errrm... sorry but the Object 704 wasn't a tank destroyer, and it didn't have the 152mm BL-10 gun like in World of Tanks. It had only a howitzer gun and it was only a ptototype...

World of Tanks is a unrealistic, historical inaccurate shooter game with made up statitics, you shouldn't use this game as a refference.... learn some real history instead. :)
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Matttheoz
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Re: Is Su-100 the best tank destroyer in WW2?

Beitrag von Matttheoz »

the Jagdpanther craps on the Su100 from a great height
Ich hasse nichts mehr als panzer, die in der Gegend herumstehen. Panzer müssen rollen! - Der Panzergraf, Graf von Strachwitz
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Re: Is Su-100 the best tank destroyer in WW2?

Beitrag von HunButyok »

There isn't good or better weapon in WW2. The advantages and the disadvantages are depending on the crew, the logistic, the strategy and so on...

Simple example: which is the better weapon? A sword or a SCUD missile system?
When a ninja use the sword it will be more powerful weapon than the SCUD system with me... Becouse I can't use the SCUD system, but the ninja can use the sword. ;)

A weaker weapon with well-trained crew is more powerful, than a stronger weapon with beginner crew.

A weaker weapon with good strategy more powerful than stronger weapon...

A weaker weapon with good ligistic more powerful than a stronger weapon with bad logistic...

And so on... Never watch only the technical parameters!
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Matttheoz
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Re: Is Su-100 the best tank destroyer in WW2?

Beitrag von Matttheoz »

HunButyok hat geschrieben:There isn't good or better weapon in WW2. The advantages and the disadvantages are depending on the crew, the logistic, the strategy and so on...
this is bollocks. of course there were better and worse weapons in ww2.

just like there were better and worse crews, better and worse logistics, better and worse strategies and so on

all other things being equal, the jagdpanther was a far superior platform

the su100 was too big a gun on a relatively small t34 chassis and has no MG. the limits of the christie suspension meant that the fighting compartment was sacrificed to save weight. so you have a tiny fighting compartment giving a slower practical rate of fire. the jagdpanther has a double torsion bar suspension so it can bear the weight of a bigger fighting compartment, an extra crewmember and more ammunition. so it has an extra crewman (radio operator/machine gunner) and carries twice as much ammunition (60 rounds vs 33 for the su100).

so it has greater combat survivability because it has dedicated radio connection to the rest of the battlefield; has an extra crewman in case of casualties; has an MG for close-in defense; and must withdraw from the battlefield to reload only once for every 2 times an su100 must reload.

and it has greater combat efficiency because of its dedicated radio connection to the rest of the battlefield, far better optics, better gun and higher practical rate of fire
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Re: Is Su-100 the best tank destroyer in WW2?

Beitrag von Green Devil »

Hi folks military18!

I got the some opinion like Matttheoz. The Jagdpanther was definitly the best tankhunter in WW II.

MfG - GREEN DEVIL military18
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Re: Is Su-100 the best tank destroyer in WW2?

Beitrag von Adler39 »

HunButyok hat geschrieben:There isn't good or better weapon in WW2. The advantages and the disadvantages are depending on the crew, the logistic, the strategy and so on...
Sorry to interrupt you there but what you say is pure nonsense. What do you mean "there isn't good or better"? Of course there is. Some tanks are better than others, some are worse.
One tank is more powerful, the other is weaker or in a different category inferior.

Some tanks have better armor but a weaker gun, others have a better gun but worse armor. Then again other tanks lack both but therefore have better mobility and speed. You see, every tank is different and has its own advantage and disadvantage. Heavy tanks with thicker, or more angled/sloped armor, proved to be more effective in combat than medium tanks, according to kill-to-loss ratio statistics of German heavy tank battalions. For example, let's compare Tiger and Panther:

Back in 1943, the Tiger I had good all-round protection, 80mm sides & rear + 100mm front. The T34-76 couldn't penetrate the Tiger's front at any range, only it could penetrate the flanks and rear
at 100m short range...

Now let's take a look at the early Panther variant, it has only 40mm effective side armor, which is very vulnerable and can be penetrated by any Soviet tank gun at far range.
The T34-76 could penetrate the Panther's weak side armor from 1,200m distance away already!

That's why there are no Panther aces who did more than 100 tank kills, but there were 10 Tiger aces of which each is credited with more than 100 tank kills.
The best Panther ace was Ernst Barkmann and he scored only about 80 tank kills. Is it just because Tiger crews were better trained in general? No.
It's because the Tiger had much better armor all-round which allowed him to survive longer in a batttle. And because it was nearly invulnerable at long range, almost no Russian tank gun could penetrate its armor in 1943, while the Panther was so vulnerable from the flanks, it couldn't survive in a battle as long as the Tiger could.

This proves, better armor did make a difference.

You really cannot compare tanks with missiles or knives. Let alone they have nothing in common. While it may be true that a trained crew can make a difference, but when in a better tank
they will perform much more effective. Period.


-Skill and training does NOT protect you against shells. But heavy/good angled armor does.

-A small calibred, low velocity gun does NOT destroy any tank it faces. But a long barreled, high velocity anti tank gun does. (8,8cm kwk43 anyone?)
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Re: Is Su-100 the best tank destroyer in WW2?

Beitrag von HunButyok »

Matttheoz hat geschrieben:
HunButyok hat geschrieben:There isn't good or better weapon in WW2. The advantages and the disadvantages are depending on the crew, the logistic, the strategy and so on...
this is bollocks. of course there were better and worse weapons in ww2.

just like there were better and worse crews, better and worse logistics, better and worse strategies and so on

all other things being equal, the jagdpanther was a far superior platform

the su100 was too big a gun on a relatively small t34 chassis and has no MG. the limits of the christie suspension meant that the fighting compartment was sacrificed to save weight. so you have a tiny fighting compartment giving a slower practical rate of fire. the jagdpanther has a double torsion bar suspension so it can bear the weight of a bigger fighting compartment, an extra crewmember and more ammunition. so it has an extra crewman (radio operator/machine gunner) and carries twice as much ammunition (60 rounds vs 33 for the su100).

so it has greater combat survivability because it has dedicated radio connection to the rest of the battlefield; has an extra crewman in case of casualties; has an MG for close-in defense; and must withdraw from the battlefield to reload only once for every 2 times an su100 must reload.

and it has greater combat efficiency because of its dedicated radio connection to the rest of the battlefield, far better optics, better gun and higher practical rate of fire

War is not one tank agains one tank... If the Jagdpanther is the best tank destroyer, why the lost the world war 2? 40000 T-34 and 50000 Sherman is much better than 1500 Tiger I... Some people often says: the german 8,8 cm gun of the Tiger could penetrate the T-34' armour at 4000 m! Haha, it was only ONE record... The most of tank battles were in close range (50-500 metres). Lot of Panthers were fallen by the guns of T-34/85 tanks... And lot of Tigers fallen by other tanks too. Of course, lot of allied tanks fallen by german heavy tanks, but it was not enough... :(

We calculated with our military-historian guys, if we always see the technical parameters and the dry datas, the germans could win the World War two against 600 000 allied medium tanks (T-34 and Shermans). This is only hypotetic battle with Pak 40, Flak 36, Panther series, Tiger I and Tiger II series against T-34 and Sherman series... So 5 types of german weapons against 2 types of allied weapons... All pieces of german five weapons (Pak 40, Flak 36, Panther, Tiger I, II) could win against 600 000 aliied medium tanks. :shock:

But it is hypocrisy, and not history...


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Re: Is Su-100 the best tank destroyer in WW2?

Beitrag von Matttheoz »

HunButyok hat geschrieben:The most of tank battles were in close range (50-500 metres)
this is also wrong. both the americans and germans calculated that most tank battles took place at 800-1000m
HunButyok hat geschrieben:If the Jagdpanther is the best tank destroyer, why the lost the world war 2? 40000 T-34 and 50000 Sherman is much better than 1500 Tiger I...
you answered your own question. jagdpanther was the best tank destroyer but with only 415 produced, they could not influence the outcome of a war between 80 million and 500 odd million
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Re: Is Su-100 the best tank destroyer in WW2?

Beitrag von Marlboro »

Tank hunters, armored turret less tanks with big guns, were already obsolete before the end of WW2. They were initially infantry support and\or self propelled artillery, olny used as anti-tank as stop gaps for armies than quickly needed a mobile platform taht could keep up with normal tanks and have more firepower.
Only Russia(43-44) and Germany(41-42) were in the imminent danger when they didn't have effective tanks to counter the enemy tanks and the necessary time and resources to improve their tanks.

--->Germany converted the pz3/4 to stug3/jpz4 as a quick solution against superior t-34 and kv tanks

--->Russia converted t-34 to t-34-85 and used self propelled artillery su-122 su-152 in antitank roles

Ever noticed how important and numerous were the tank hunters in German and Russian service compared to western allies?
Their development was sparked by a long and hard land battle both nations depleting their resources had to come up with something, easy to build, cheap and yet effective but with low usability.
USA and GB weren't threaten with invasion and complete destruction. If they lost a battle their production factories and resources were always safe from the enemy.

So if you compare the role of the tank hunter in mobile armored tactics with that of a medium tank, you would see, calculating production numbers also, that medium tanks are responsible for most tank kills, and also medium tanks could be used in many more scenarios than tank hunters.


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Re: Is Su-100 the best tank destroyer in WW2?

Beitrag von Matttheoz »

Marlboro hat geschrieben:Tank hunters, armored turret less tanks with big guns, were already obsolete before the end of WW2
not true if you look at the swedish s-tank which served til the 1990s. it all comes down to role. the swedes are a neutral country but feared a communist invasion after germany (her main trading partner) fell. they needed a defensive tank since they didn't plan to invade anyone. after considering the success of the StuGs in finland (similar terrain) they decided a turretless tank with a low silhouette was better at defense and tank vs tank combat.

Marlboro hat geschrieben:They were initially infantry support and\or self propelled artillery, olny used as anti-tank as stop gaps for armies than quickly needed a mobile platform taht could keep up with normal tanks and have more firepower.
you shouldn't confuse Stugs (assault guns) which are artillery and are crewed by artillerymen, not tankers, with dedicated tank destroyers like the jagdpanther which was purpose built to hunt tanks and definately not a stop gap. the german terminology is best for this distinction - panzerjaeger = tank hunter (eg marder) = stop gap; whereas jagdpanzer = hunting tank (eg jagdpanzer) = purpose built. unfortunately in english we lump them all together under the designation "tank destroyer"
Marlboro hat geschrieben:Only Russia(43-44) and Germany(41-42) were in the imminent danger
russia was in no danger by then. it was only a matter of time
Marlboro hat geschrieben:medium tanks are responsible for most tank kills
British tank losses in NW Europe

Total 1305 tanks

cause:
Mines 22.1%
ATk guns 22.7%
Tanks 14.5%
SP guns 24.4%
Panzerfaust 14.2%
Other 2.1%


British tank losses in Italy

Total 671 tanks

cause:
Mines 30%
ATk guns 16%
Tanks 12%
SP guns 26%
Panzerfaust 9%
Other 7%

("The comparative performance of German anti-tank weapons during WWII" WO 291/1186 report 24 May 1950)

if you read guderian's book he is quite in love with the StuG. they destroyed over 20,000 enemy tanks by 1944. when he was inspector-general of armoured troops he desperately wanted to have the StuGs turned over to the panzerwaffe to coordinate and focus the antitank effort and increase its effectiveness, but the artillerymen refused to give up the stugs because it was the only way an artilleryman could earn the knights cross! since hitler had a hard enough time trying to control the ambitions, rivalries and in-fighting of his generals he decided not to upset the artillerymen so guderian never got the stugs. just one example of german generals putting their career in front of the common war effort.

but, if we are talking tank destroyers like the OP, the jagdpanther was simply the best
Ich hasse nichts mehr als panzer, die in der Gegend herumstehen. Panzer müssen rollen! - Der Panzergraf, Graf von Strachwitz
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Re: Is Su-100 the best tank destroyer in WW2?

Beitrag von Marlboro »

That statistic is not very clear concerning the actual usefulness that you want it to imply...

Also note that large percentage of kills by mines is indicator of a defensive nature battle and not the normal mobile tank combat, where you actually need other mobile platforms to kill the enemy.
This time a simple panzerfaust will do...


SPG does it refer to panzerjagers (=meaning vehicles carrying anti-tank guns) or vehicles carrying indirect fire guns? Huge difference or both?

Also note what i've said earlier, a panzerjager is far cheaper and easier to build than a tank, so it's normal for Germany to have more SPGs, especially since they ar eon the defensive
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